/fg/ - Fangames

>>12580
And we had a lot more people back in the day too. But now we don't, so instead of filling a thread with ego battles it'd be more useful to simply talk about game development, don't you agree?

>>12582
>The point of making a fan game is recreating the experience of playing yn for the first time while giving something different.
There's a little flaw in your argument, namely that which I'm quoting. According to you, a fangame tries to replicate the original, but this isn't necessarily true. There are many fangames, very popular even, that don't necessarily are the same thing as the original (just look at touhou and you will see more bullshit than just danmaku). Even yume nikki has a castlevania clone, and just because it isn't made with rpgmaker doesn't make it any less of a fangame than, say, lcd.
You seem to assume that a fangame is a copy of sort of the original, but actually anything derived/and or with correlation to the original game fits the definition of fangame. Now, I do admit that some people push the limits way too off (fleshchild, for example), however I haven't played this game so I can't argue you whether it is doing that or not.

>>12582
>The point of making a fan game is recreating the experience of playing yn for the first time while giving something different
Autistic screeching from the "innovation" crowd incoming.

>>12584
>According to you, a fangame tries to replicate the original, but this isn't necessarily true.
There are virtually countless mediocre RPG Maker 2000/2003 games, and yet Yume Nikki somehow caught on and achieved a cult classic status. Say you're trying to follow in its footsteps and make a game similar to it. Wouldn't you try to replicate the elements that made it stand out in the first place?

And the Touhou example doesn't really fit, cause it wasn't the game itself that people liked, it was the characters. Therefore as long as said characters are involved, a Touhou fangame can be just about anything conceivable. Obviously, this is not the case for Yume Nikki.

>>12582
>The point of making a fan game is recreating the experience of playing yn for the first time while giving something different.

It's not…I could make a danmakufu script with YN characters and call it a fangame if I wish.

It's a fan made game, something you make to display some kind of appreciation for the source material, it doesn't need to capture the original "magic" or anything like that.

Browse fangames of other franchises, hell, Touhou has everything from platformers to pong games.

>>12586
>There are virtually countless mediocre RPG Maker 2000/2003 games, and yet Yume Nikki somehow caught on and achieved a cult classic status. Say you're trying to follow in its footsteps and make a game similar to it. Wouldn't you try to replicate the elements that made it stand out in the first place?
This isn't making a fangame, this is making a copy. That's the difference I'm talking about.

>And the Touhou example doesn't really fit, cause it wasn't the game itself that people liked, it was the characters. Therefore as long as said characters are involved, a Touhou fangame can be just about anything conceivable. Obviously, this is not the case for Yume Nikki.
My point with touhou was that it didn't need to be the same genre/style to be considered a fangame. I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that caslevania clone IS a yume nikki clone regardless of the gameplay, mechanics, story, or engine.

And as pointed out by >>12587 if I made a danmaku fangame using YN characters it is still a fangame. Or even a bizarre dungeon crawler focused on exploration and graphics and dream-like scenery, and it would be as good as any other fangame. Hell, EVEN BETTER than other RPGmaker bullshit.

>>12586
Touhou and Yume Nikki are not the only games that have fangames that vary a lot in style, Danganronpa, Dragon Ball, Final Fantasy, Pokemon, and many others do too, you can't tell me they are all about the characters.

>>12588
>This isn't making a fangame, this is making a copy.
Uh, no? If you create an original world with original characters events that still invokes the same feeling as those Yume Nikki did, does that mean you've copied YN? That doesn't make sense.

Well, I guess if we're being overly technical. it's true: anything can be a fangame. But not anything can be a *decent* fangame, and this is where the stuff I've outlined comes into play.

>>12590
>If you create an original world with original characters events that still invokes the same feeling as those Yume Nikki did, does that mean you've copied YN? That doesn't make sense.
It may have an original world, with original characters, and original events, but it is still copying Yume Nikki's mechanics, style, and format. I'm not saying it's a carbon-copy and everything is literally the same, I'm just saying that in our community we're more used to this kind of fangame where you aim to copy that which made YN great, but most just end copying elements and not carrying any of that "magic" you just felt with YN. "Wow, great, another neon world". "Look! how original, another snow world". "Oh look a light switch, gee I wonder what it does?". These were solid points we made back some time ago about why YN fangames weren't fun anymore.

This led us to other problem though: when people make things that deviate too much from this formula and don't feel "fangame"-ish anymore. Take fleshchild, for example, I hated it. It was a game on its own claiming to be a "fangame" of sorts, when you can only claim it is influenced by YN, at most. It didn't even feel like something related to YN at all. I think this is your problem with this game. Again, I haven't played it so I can't talk about how it feels or not "related to YN", however it does claim to be A Yume Nikki styled game, though "more along the lines of Nightmare Castle than Hell Diary or Amihailu in Dreamland", both of which I didn't like and had this problem, in my opinion.

>But not anything can be a *decent* fangame, and this is where the stuff I've outlined comes into play.
What is a *decent* fangame, then? It could be the shittiest, most bugged thing I ever played but if it actually entertained me and I enjoyed it more than others then I would claim it is pretty decent as a *fangame*.

>>12579
the things that make a fangame successful depends on the person experiencing it
let's look at the 2 most popular fangames, 2kki and flow
while someone who loved 2kki probably likes flow, their idea of an ideal fangame might be different from someone in the opposite viewpoint

Let's look at the main differences and trivia between them:

2kki
- The first(?) fangame to be ever created, spawned off 2chan and is worked on by a constantly changing small team
- Is a Yume Nikki "successor", with the Yume 2kki pun and the way most things are designed
- Polished as fuck in way of graphics and presentation, save for some worlds
- World is absolutely huge, the game is dead set on exploration
- Has its fair share of dark/light/neutral areas
- Mood of the game is slightly ligther than Yume Nikki and feels more recreational
- Gotta catch 'em all! Wallpapers, effects, menu themes and music!
- The game just rolls with Urotsuki's fucked up dreams as seen by the endings
- Urotsuki's dreamland doesn't feel coherent, owing to the multiple developers. For some this is a good thing (it IS a dream after all) and for some it's a negative
- Continued until everyone crashes and fucking dies
- Overall feels like a fun wonderland

.flow
- Also one of earliest fangames, made by a single person who is a huge westaboo
- Is a Yume Nikki fangame but derives more into its own territory (some have mixed opinions on it: http://archive.uboachan.net/flow/res/701.xhtml)
- Not much in the way of polish for most of the early worlds and presentation/animations. lol's art is ZUN-tier so he can't use it like how 2kki used artwork. Some worlds (mostly those added on the last updates) do have an element of polish but it's nothing compared to Wataru.
- IIRC, world is actually slightly SMALLER than Yume Nikki. It also follows a very intertwined map design with shortcuts everywhere.
- The whole game is moody from the start to finish. The game does try to moderate the overall apathy with some bittersweet/calming areas to avoid the Crawling in my Skin factor (still affected by it)
- Not much in the way of collectible or goodies, has some randomized stuff there and there though
- The "plot" is a clusterfuck when you consider the endings (which questions the reality of everything seen before it). Without the endings, Sabitsuki is just this moody kid with fucked up tendencies (like 2kki, LCD and YN) but with the true ending stuff runs deeper. Most people say it's the FG with most "plot"
- .flow is cohesive as fuck since it's made by 1 guy. All the areas, BGM's and characters lead up to one another
- Updated until lol moved to new and better things
- Oddly has more memes
- Feels like more of a journey, most late areas are grounded in realism or industrial areas

See where i'm getting at? I know it seems like im describing the fangame-y parts that can differ but that's not what i mean. I bring you my opinion (more like a weird conspiracy theory) on why the western scene is the way it is. Have you ever wondered why .flow is the most popular FG in the west aside from the edgy horror game thing? Because it stands out on its own (for a variety of reasons, mainly whatever story it is trying to achieve and cohesion), that's why most western FG's (albeit most of them shitty) try to have something to "stand out" instead of being like 2kki and being inherently linked to the YN formula (which .flow applied to a lesser extent) while most jap FG's maintain the formula (2kki is the most favored FG there for obvious reasons)
I'm not saying 2kki is not it's own game or some cloudcuckooland Oreko did 9/11 stuff, but if you can link the dots there and there i'm sure you can reach a conclusion

I might continue this weird conspiracy post on the FG scene but i can't wrap my thoughts around it as 2 whole hours have passed with me thinking about pretty much everything that contributes to FGs and lurking while making this post

Also to all these fags arguing about fangames, look at Dream vs Dream and that weird platformer where you play as Poniko
there is also a thread specifically meant for FG ranting >>12161

>>12590
>it's true: anything can be a fangame. But not anything can be a *decent* fangame
Oh please, they can have something different than a nexus and dream exploration and be great.
Just tell me Elysium City and Divinity Fatum are not fucking awesome.

>>12592
>It may have an original world, with original characters, and original events[…]
>"Wow, great, another neon world". "Look! how original, another snow world". "Oh look a light switch, gee I wonder what it does?"
Hold on, you're either making something original or you're copying Yume Nikki's designs. What you're describing doesn't sound original at all.

>These were solid points we made back some time ago about why YN fangames weren't fun anymore.
I still think it's just the authors being shit at what they do, I mean, look at Yuque. It's a recent fangame, it's as classic as it gets, but it's also pretty acclaimed. Perhaps it's not the style that is at fault.

>however it does claim to be A Yume Nikki styled game, though "more along the lines of Nightmare Castle than Hell Diary or Amihailu in Dreamland", both of which I didn't like and had this problem, in my opinion.
Well, it also claims, and I'm honestly sick of bringing it up at this point:
>It's a traditional fangame, like 2kki or Dream Graffiti.
I thought to myself, "Wow! A fangame that actually focuses on creating atmosphere and exploration!" But apparently it isn't, nor does the author have any intent to make it so. Which kind of let me down, cause there's honestly enough fangames that ignore the whole atmosphere/mystery thing.

>What is a *decent* fangame, then?
Different strokes, but for me it's just something that focuses on exploration, unique visuals and atmosphere. Incidentally, that's also the rarest breed of a fangame by far.

>>12594
Hey, never said they weren't, okay?

>>12593
I think I should elaborate more on what I meant by, "fangame". There's two types of fangame. One kind is anything that involves the characters of the original. A beach volley ball simulator with characters from yn would be considered this type. The second kind tries to, "recreate", the original and is much harder to pull off successfully. Nobody would make an rpg with a lot of random girls with silly hats based on Japanese and other eastern myths and call it a Touhou fangame if it didn't include any touhou characters. If instead of an rpg, the game was in the bullet-hell genre, it could be considered a fangame. Let's pretend that the idea of a dream diary game where the mc goes into a dream world and goes on adventures was as massively popular and common as schmups. Just like how touhou 1 isn't considered to be an Arkanoid fangame, most dream diary games would't be considered yn fangames. So what would make something a yn fangame in this scenario? More importantly, what would make something considered to be a good fangame? Just like in my touhou example, a bullet hell game with girls in silly hats based eastern myths shares a lot of superficial similarities with Touhou which is technically enough to call it a fangame. Whether that game would be considered a successful fangame or not depends on how well it achieves what Touhou achieved, or at least has the qualities to achieve. Now, if you were to apply this to yn, a fangame in the second category would be considered successful if it achieves what the original did. Dugashoba is in the second category and I feel that no, it does not meet the criteria. What makes it a yn fangame is purely superficial qualities. There's a lot of walking. Check. There's effects to collect. Check mark. Snow world, double check. Weird transition between real world and exploring one. Check. Top-down perspective. Check check check check check.

>>12596
Now, let's take the red pill and go even deeper. I personally feel that what makes a good fangame is less about the similarities to the original, and more about what could be different while still keeping true to the original. Stuff like walking a lot and having tons of stuff to find are necessities, sure, but what could be changed? The first and most obvious is art style. The second is what you're looking for. In yn it was effects, but being able to find anything else that changes the way you can play the game would work just as well. The third thing I can think of is exactly what the end goal is. A yn fangame with a slightly different perspective and art style where instead of trying to find effects, you were just looking for random items that would help you reach certain areas and instead of trying to find effects to end the game, you were looking for a specific thing with a location that you had a vague understanding of would be quite the breath of fresh air.

>>12595
>Hold on, you're either making something original or you're copying Yume Nikki's designs. What you're describing doesn't sound original at all.
Please, re-read that part of my post, I'm talking about two different things there. What I meant is, people, thinking about this concept, misunderstood what made YN "good" and started to copy it again and again, which affected negatively the desire of users to play fangames anymore and later led to the so-called "non-formula" fangames, whose devs where looking for innovation.

>I still think it's just the authors being shit at what they do, I mean, look at Yuque. It's a recent fangame, it's as classic as it gets, but it's also pretty acclaimed. Perhaps it's not the style that is at fault.
I think the reason yuque is so acclaimed right now is because 98% of the fangames produced in the past 6 years where absolute, utter shit. I'd be interested in knowing what would of happened if it was posted back when we were sick of repetitive fangames, instead of a time where no fangame is produced anymore and the last ones don't really stand out the crowd.

>>12596
>the second kind tries to, "recreate", the original and is much harder to pull off successfully. Nobody would make an rpg with a lot of random girls with silly hats based on Japanese and other eastern myths and call it a Touhou fangame if it didn't include any touhou characters. If instead of an rpg, the game was in the bullet-hell genre, it could be considered a fangame.
I think there's a slight error here. You say that some games try to "recreate" the original, and the mention a rpg touhou fangame without 2hos. If it is rpg it isn't trying to recreate the original, it'd be the first kind of fangames you mentioned (volley ball example).
Anyway, Len'en is the example you're looking for here. Yes, it's not considered a fangame in the same sense as if it had touhou characters, however there isn't a single person who will deny you with a straight face that it is trying to do exactly what touhou did (in the same way yume niki "formula" fangames try to emulate yume nikki). Not even the author:
"Q1. Have you got any terms and conditions regarding the copyright of the Len'en Project (how we should upload material, etc.)?"
"A1. Since Len'en itself is my way of paying respect to the Touhou Project, there are no hard restrictions on fanworks, game footage etc."
Source: http://lenen.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Len%27en_Wiki:Interview_with_JynX_(2015)

>So what would make something a yn fangame in this scenario? More importantly, what would make something considered to be a good fangame? Just like in my touhou example, a bullet hell game with girls in silly hats based eastern myths shares a lot of superficial similarities with Touhou which is technically enough to call it a fangame.
The reason why people would call this kind of game a touhou fangame is simply because touhou popularized the format first. If YN format was popular and you had hundreds of games like that, everybody would agree that they're emulating yume nikki, because that's the game that popularized the idea first. Not many people remember now probably, but JRPG are all based of dragon quest and you still see even to this day games paying homage to it. Wizardry is the (grand)father of dungeon crawlers, and although forgotten now because the genre has died, all dungeon crawler players do know about it. And both of these pay homage to Ultima. Both nethack and angband are the living descendants of Hack and Moria, who were games trying to translate rouge into their own systems. That's the reason they're known as "rouge-like".
Time hasn't been gentle with any of those games at all, and the people who used to play them grew up and their children don't feel like playing old games for dead hardware. But they stand on their own as references simply because they popularized a concept the moment they were released.

What is interesting is the blurry line between "fangame" and "inspired by", at first I didn't think this game was a fangame, something similar happens with Undertale fan game makers, they have the fangames, the ex fangames and the "inspired by" that confuse everyone.

>>12599
Oh please, Normietale fangames are just meme games like the original game, no one takes them seriously, name ONE Undertale fangame that is as notable as 2kki or .flow, you can't, also fuck you.

>>12598
I feel like you misunderstood some of the points I was trying to make.
>You say that some games try to "recreate" the original, and the mention a rpg touhou fangame without 2hos. If it is rpg it isn't trying to recreate the original, it'd be the first kind of fangames you mentioned (volley ball example).
My example of an rpg with girls in silly hats based on eastern myths was meant to show something that nobody would consider to be a fangame despite its similarities to touhou. It neither has the characters or the gameplay of touhou so nobody would have reason to think of it as a touhou fangame. The point i'm trying to make is that while every single dream diary game is considered to be a yn fangame, you need to be pretty specific for your game to be considered a touhou fangame. This is why, "innovative", fangames wouldn't be considered to be fangames in an environment where dream diary games are common. And by that, I don't mean dream diary games like yn, I mean the concept of a person being transported to another world in their dreams. If there where tons of action rpgs and danmaku games and puzzle games with this premise, the, "funnel", of what people do and don't call a yn fangame would be much smaller, just like with touhou. People don't call Touhou an Arkanoid fangame because there's hundreds of games like Breakout and Arkanoid. If the those types of games where extremely rare, and Zun called his game an Akanoid fangame, some people would probably complain about it not following the Arkanoid formula closely enough.
>The reason why people would call this kind of game a touhou fangame is simply because touhou popularized the format first.
No. The format of Touhou games is danmaku games. People don't call every danmaku game a Touhou fangame, but everybody does call every dream diary game a yn fangame. Both yn and touhou fangames can be good and bad and both tend to be bad if they just copy superficial traits from what they're based on.

>>12601
Oh, right, I definitely misunderstood the first part. After re-reading your point I noticed it was a sort of example and wasn't connected with what was before it. The lack of space makes things hard to follow.

>No. The format of Touhou games is danmaku games.
Ding dong, wrong. Most danmaku focuse in futuristic settings and feature robots or ships of some sort. Touhou involves girls fighting with magic, myth, mysticism, religion and natural aesthetics rather than space flights, mechas fighting each other or war of some sorts; that's what I meant by "format". It'd be like saying that any game about war is the same when there's medieval war, modern warfare, naval warfare, air battles, etc, and even among those you have real time strategy, first player shooters, coop, single, etc.
Touhou was not the first game to prioritize these traits (cotton popularized the idea first and introduced the Cute 'em up genre), but it's definitely the most massive one and why it'd be hard to produce anything similar without falling in the "inspired by 2ho". I mean, you'd either need to shave some of those traits or focus on something different.

>>12600
>name ONE Undertale fangame that is as notable as 2kki or .flow
Undertale itself is, and it has a lot more fans than Yume Nikki, you missed my point though, I was talking about fangames, how notable those are is irrelevant, but since you wanted to play that card…

>>12602
Okay fine, but that's besides my main point. If a fangame just copies surface traits of what it's based on, it wont be good. A lot of yn fangames fall into this trap and a lot of, "innovative", fangames are only called such because it falls into the very small niche genre of dream diary games. If eastern myth inspired games where considered to be their own genre and not mainly just a touhou thing it would be a lot harder to justify why your game is a Touhou fangame. Touhou was a pretty poor exmaple because it falls into its own niche. I don't even know why touhou was brought up. To make an arkanoid fangame, you need a lot of the surface traits of arkanoid. To make a good arkanoid fangame, you need understand how arkanoid works and try to recreate that in an interesting way. The same applies to yn. Too many people miss this point when making yn fangames. Both the innovators and copy paste people are doing it wrong.

>>12598
>'d be interested in knowing what would of happened if it was posted back when we were sick of repetitive fangames, instead of a time where no fangame is produced anymore and the last ones don't really stand out the crowd.
Well, people would still probably acknowledge its pixel art and its underlying story, which is cohesive. while still being relatively fresh. I think.

>What I meant is, people, thinking about this concept, misunderstood what made YN "good" and started to copy it again and again, which affected negatively the desire of users to play fangames anymore and later led to the so-called "non-formula" fangames, whose devs where looking for innovation.
Today we learned that talentless people can ruin a good genre for everyone else. Or maybe not, I myself never really subscribed to that kind of thinking. Maybe you shouldn't either.

>>12598

> would of


It's would've or would HAVE you moron.

>>12606
>It's would've or would HAVE you moron.
Oh, sire, you has done quite the discovery here, innit? Me is so sorry, writings too fast and me is not bein' paid not even tuppence to gives a shit about you internet grammar quest, sire.

Seriously are you underage, or just retard? I t i s a t y p o.

>>12606
People will always be able to recognize quality. The guy who you were responding to seems to reject the idea that quality is enduring. Something that is good is by definition timeless in my opinion. If it would be good five years ago, it would be good now. Whether or not people would be able to appreciate a good fangame that closely follows the original during a time when many bad fangames that copy the original were being released is a mystery, but people would eventually warm up to it if it is actually good.
>>12606
Trying to invalidate somebodies opinion by pointing out a typo they made is really pathetic and juvenile.

>>12562
>You wouldn't call someone who's worked on 2 or more big commercial releases arrogant for calling themselves a seasoned dev, so what about that makes me arrogant when I have about as much experience?

What do you consider a big commercial release? Because I think of, for instance, Final Fantasy, or something at the same revenue level, since that is what a big commercial release is. What I would call a seasoned dev is those people, people who are with big studios like Square Enix, or Blizzard, etc., who have been working with games in a professional business setting for many years. What I would like to point out is that you say you're as experienced as these big named studios, if thats what you're referring to. This is where I find the arrogance.

>>12562
>You wouldn't call someone who's worked on 2 or more big commercial releases arrogant for calling themselves a seasoned dev, so what about that makes me arrogant when I have about as much experience?

You don't have as much experience because you don't have two or more big commercial releases, regardless of what your collabs are, saying that sending music files or deigning characters for a few games makes you as good as a developer with two big commercial releases is delusional, if that was true Rindre would be fucking Nintendo, but she decides to be humble, that's how it should be.

You have a couple free RPG Maker games online, and the most notable one on Steam.

Don't get me wrong that isn't small, hell compared with most of tumblr devs you are big, but you're nowhere near where you believe you are.

>>12610
> You need to be AAA to truly have experience
Lol you stupid fuck

>>12610
>collabs
it's not "collabs", she was hired by different VN studios you contemptible autistic faggot

>>12614
I quoted her, so you just called Noyemi a stupid fuck, we're talking about big commercial releases here, though, not AAA.

>>12615
>it's not "collabs", she was hired by different VN studios you contemptible autistic faggot
Granted, still not her product and submitting assets does not equal the experience of leading two big commercial releases.
Nice agressive white knighting guys, it doesn't look bad at all.

>>12614
You dont have to be AAA to have experience, she's just not as experienced as giant professional franchises. Its just facts.

>>12617
also big release does not always equal AAA. She's never had a big commercial release, which she compared herself to

To bring this back to topic: I think the problem with the game is that it emulates the gameplay of YN but feels nothing like it. I don't think that any of the enviroments are dreamlike at all, which I think is one of the most important aspects of this type of game. The atmosphere is really lacking. This makes me feel like I'm just wandering around in a big empty house with nothing going on. Am I the only one getting the same vibe?

>>12620
That was already said like 10 times by now.

>>12621
I dunno about that. Feels like the topic has been mostly what a fangame is and how competent Noyemi is.

>>12622
Maybe some of the meaning was lost in the wording, but it's not like it matters at this point. Since Noyemi is apparently too cool for us unappreciative heathens, giving actual feedback only gets us as far.

>>12624
Nah, mishka always leaves our vomitive shithole and comes back when emotions have cooled down. It'd be pretty lame to say one random guy made a dev go away because the game didn't fit the standards the player had in mind.

Also owl, you're next.

>>12624
same situation different paint with less names
2 years ago people were complaining about meta threads and mado recolors while wanting mado recolors (i remember a bleet post on Clowder's game about all the poopooposts)

http://archive.uboachan.net/fg/res/66.xhtml
http://archive.uboachan.net/flow/res/2.xhtml
even sooner than that

>>12620
This is an important thing to bring up. I haven't really thought about the world itself as much as the npcs.

>>12629
To further clarify my thoughts on the game… I realize I'm sort of harsh here, but y'know what's the point in hiding the truth. At least the truth as I see it. Feel free to disagree.

In this sort of game, you really need the enviroments and characters to catch your interest, because that's pretty much 99% of the experience. You sure as hell don't play YN games because you're looking for challenging gameplay. You play them to take a peek into another world. To let your imagination soar, even for just a moment.
If the game just looks like a bunch of government buildings… well, lets just say my imagination might just as well stay home. The game just feels really sterile and dull. It doesn't challenge my imagination, it kills it.

>>12630
Doesn't honesty feel great? Having to hold your tongue for the sake of some touchy tumblr dev sucks. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

>>12630
Yeah it coasts along entirely on the faux PC98 aesthetics, but that's surface level.

>>12615
>Sending music files to itch.io renpyfags gives as much experience as handling two or more big commercial game releases.
Spare me. Even if they actually were big name studios, spare me.

>>12615
Sending files to a commercial release is NOT the same as being behind a big commercial release, it would play into her musical experience, not game development experience.

>>12624
It's just a prank bro

>>12642
>Dead Meme
I'm very disappointed in you.

So, Mishka actually left the shithole after all, this fag was right >>12624
I haven't seen Owl around here either, I wonder if any other users left.

>>12740
Nah, owl has been inactive for a long while (I haven't seen any update in his site) but he still comes from time to time, although I can't say how often.

>>12741
Still alive and kicking.