File: 1328417455984.png (18.84 KB, 1082x416, yumenikki_fangame.png)
No.3761
I don't know if this is really all that important, but that's why I made this thread: to find out if it's important…Or at least find out what /fg/ thinks.
I've been meaning to make this thread ever since I saw a post asking "why we call them fangames"; and that it's similar to when earlier FPSs were called "Doom-likes"/clones (related Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_%28video_game%29#Clones_and_related_products).
So /fg/, what exactly is this genre of games we love making and playing so much?
In the mean while, here's my take:
We just call them "fangames" because, well, they're all made by fans of Yume Nikki.
But,
Yume Nikki's Wikipedia page refers to it as a "surreal adventure PC game" (though it's genres are listed as: Art game, Exploration game, and RPG). I believe Moga's "fangame" May was referred to as "Surreal Adventure Game: May", at one time. I think I've seen a few people call some of the games on /fg/ "surreal adventure games" (and I myself refer to them as that from time to time).
So, that's what I think; these games are surreal-adventure games.
Although on the off chance one of these games is not surreal, then I guess they could be called "exploration games" (which is a genre Yume Nikki is apparently already in).
Anyways, that's just my opinion. I wanna know what your opinions are. =3
(pic related…and edited)
Also, if anyone happened to see a thread like this on old-Uboachan, then link to it please!
No.3771
File: 1328423665407.jpg (136.07 KB, 1600x1041, for_a_few_dollars_more_still.j…)
Fangames are YN clones, face the fucking truth. They are not independent surreal exploration games (Neftelia fits in the term, but it's YN-independent), they're clones. Recolors. Enjoy them or not, it's that way. Clones.
inb4 troll, but prove me wrong then.
No.3781
File: 1328430183252.jpg (61.75 KB, 401x600, Eddie-Hazel.jpg)
I think that YN and it's clones genre is Exploration. Surreal is not a genre, it's just artistic description.
I don't think clones is bad. In example, most of VNs is technically the same - they are clones. But each VN has unique mood.
If you want to copy YN mood - it's impossible, I think, and it would lead to bad YN clone.
Try to add something new to genre, try to get rid of YN cliche's, and no one would consider your game as clone.
No.3796
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>>3790
That's what I've been telling these people all along!
And as of
>but it's really slipshod in my opinion. RTP graphics and some broken mechanics
I should really gather all the constructive feedback in one place and give it a thought. %%Also help wanted, but that's for the related thread%%
No.3833
I'm quite fond of the definition of 'action/adventure' or 'exploration' in this case. This is because, when I think of a game plainly revolved around the term 'adventure', I think of hentai 'visual novels'. These 'adventure' games have no real quests or game-play other than choosing 'yes' or 'no' which leads to different, motionless pictures and dialog. Not one essence of 'action' implied.
It's simply 'action/adventure' or 'exploration', because these break-offs of genres are starting to get on my nerves. It's what you get when you remove all the enemies from The Legend of Zelda and make most of the rooms loop indefinitely like the Lost Forest, nothing more, nothing less.
In a sense, the game seems to remind me of Knytt and Knytt Stories. It's just an exploration game; you find items, there are usually little to no actual enemies, and the feel can almost be the same, granted the fan-made quests of Knytt Stories.
As for 'fan games', a fan game is when you take the existing characters, and toss them in somewhere else, reusing their ideologies and enemies. The only games that actually fall under the category of 'fan game' on this site are completely left out of the main sticky post of this site; Houchou Shoujo Gensokyoku and the like. Why? When you think of 'fan game', you expect someone to reuse the existing characters, because that's a 'fan' of the game and the characters themselves. You don't call Final Fantasy a 'fan' game of Dragon Quest or vice-versa just because they have turn-based battle systems and a completely different character roster and storyline, otherwise that makes every single turn-based RPG a 'fan game' of Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, not to mention the RPG Maker's design is a blatant reproduction of those games.
No.3899
>>3896
As I said before, there is hope yet. Lots of interesting games have cropped up here in the past couple of weeks, even though none of them are even out yet.
Which highlights a second problem: tha majority of the games are stuck in limbo between the conception and the first version. And still, some games have a first version but a follow-up is not in clear sight. Even a few interesting games have been relegated to the bin of "could-have-beens" in this fashion.
This lack of actual dedication to the project is indicative of the creator's desire to "cash in" on Yume Nikki's niche for popularity. They play the game and get a rough idea, and they break it down into two elements to ensure the quickest development—and thus, cash in—possible:
-The areas don't have to make sense, and you can make up some bullshit about how it's a look into the character's personality.
-A Measure of the game's "doneness" is typically done with the number of effects and the presence of an ending. Despite the game being technically completed, they feel the need to add more shit in the vein of Yume 2kki. 3 endings, but no end to development in sight.
Furthermore, with their random scribble parallaxes and eyes and body part map features, they ask other creators and regulars to come up with theories about this. This is another region where the community suffers, because in this case it's more like a game of "guess what number I'm thinking of" than formulating an informed opinion about the events in the game, based solely on the game.
I will follow up this rant in a separate post.
No.3900
It seems there is a lot of hostility in this thread!
First off, I would call them surreal exploration games, since all of the ones I have played have gone for that surrealism feeling.
Ok, now let's break this all down. Yes, almost all games we have seen so far are clones in the sense of using the same Madotsuki sprites, and analogues to the original effects. Some shoot directly for that yume nikki feel, and those are the most clone-like (Yume Nisshi) And then there are others who delve a bit deeper and try to establish some semblance of order in their game worlds, May being the biggest and earliest example.
A lot, if not all of these games, are going for a "deeper" meaning, trying to pull off something artistic. And yes, some of the creators are so eager about their game they will spill the beans on everything in the "storyline". Symbolism is rampant and the most abused form of telling a story in these games, which can make it boring and unoriginal to many people. Because of the symbolism I've seen, the most prevalent is "look at this weird place filled with blood, look at this weird event, i put a strange and wacky symbol everywhere that is blatantly obvious to see, what can they all mean?!??!?" And while that is not necessarily a bad way to add meaning to a game, many people don't know how to utilize it properly. A good example is that, the creator establishes one theme and builds symbolism off of it, and leaves it at that. There is nothing progressive about it. You just see this one image or theme everywhere and it becomes obvious "this game is about X"
Instead, what I would like to see is small, progressive symbolism. With different themes with different meanings. The problem is that aside from splattering references to it all over worlds, you need to write an actual story. Something more detailed than "the hero is crazy". Which requires more work and effort, which might require dialogue and cutscenes and stuff. Which is very tedious to do.
Seeing a story told and seeing games take the yume nikki style as a base, then expand upon it and alter it, is what separates the clones from the independant games.
No.3905
>>3900
I think one of the bigger problems with the way creators usually approach these games is twofold, much like their understanding of elements that I outlined.
-They don't know how to tell a story through symbolism alone (it can't actually be done, but more on that in a bit)
-They don't look at other games when coming up with a formula. They simply take Yume Nikki's gameplay and run it /straight into the ground/.
As I said with the storytelling, they often pick some theme, normally something that can be described in a single word, and fail to expand upon it. It pervades every area and every facet of the game, and despite the differences, manages to make the entirety of the game into a bland paste instead of the smorgasbord that Yume Nikki is (or, for another good example, your game). Furthermore, this attempt fails on the conceptual level thanks to the sheer, blatant execution. They create a gimmick for the entire game to follow and then just copypaste areas from Yume Nikki with some minor edits to try to create some semblance of a personality for the character.
The characters themselves are often shallow and one-dimensional, with no indication of the kind of person they might be beyond their dreams and unwillingness to leave their homes. To say that they are "crazy" because of their odd dreams is merely an excuse to withhold depth from them.
A lot of the depth to Yume Nikki and Madotsuki's character had more to do with fan speculation than anything that was actually in the game. They have absolutely nothing to go on in this case beyond some vague, broad motifs that Kikiyama might not have even intended to mean anything. The fact that this isn't manufactured lends a true mystique to the game, something that is absolutely impossible for anyone who regularly posts here to do, it seems.
It's okay. The game doesn't have to try to emulate Yume Nikki's oddball, organic quirkiness and ambiguity. The game can go off and do its own thing, regardless of whether or not the character winds up to be insane or something. In fact, this is probably preferable to trying to make a game with vague themes and wraparound maps that tries too hard to tell a vague story about its lead character.
The second major problem, which I will try to discuss in brief (since this post is already quite long) is that the authors do not look to other games when coming up with the basic formula to their game. Oftentimes, they merely seek to put a spin on the whole "dreams" thing, change the %knife/bike/cat% effects cosmetically and make analogues to them, and call it a day. This is not game design.
This is self-serving bullshit designed to con hapless fans into uttering some kind of praise.
What creators often forget is that, above all, they are trying to make a GAME. And oftentimes, these "games" are unplayable messes. Plagued by bugs that aren't quickly stomped, difficult to navigate, mired in the need to force the player to march through spectacle in order to avoid true substance.
It's maddening how lazy this actually turns out to be, and I think I'll stop here before I write a sloppy novel about how much better this fangame situation should be.
No.3932
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>>3905
>>3925 (assuming it's the same anon)
glory glory hallelujah